Nandini Sundar, "The Adivasis suffer exploitation on a massive scale"

The first reaction of the Government of Chhattisgarh has been to say that they will integrate the existing SPO regular police forces. Would this be a bad start?

May do so in the case of the EPO (Special Police Officers in English SPO) meeting certain conditions. Because one of the problems is that they have been recruiting children, people with no education or training and people who are not prepared to enter the police service by the police or whatever. Many of them may not be integrated. If we integrate on the basis of their qualifications and provide them with proper training, anyone may object because this will be so regulated. Is having this force is not trained and not subject to liability, which works almost like a private army of one. It is as if tomorrow the RSS (a group of Hindu supremacist ideology) comes to power and says he will use OEPS. How do you control this? Anybody could do it, so we must insist on qualifications and employment regulated for recruitment.

In their logic, I guess is their inability to reach these areas that led them to try something new.

Yes, but it is an opportunistic measure. What they do is use whatever is available, it is the same kind of logic that America used to Guantanamo. Violate all rules and procedures, using torture and you think it will work, but in practice it proves not. And while you're damaging the Constitution and the rule of law.

Salwa Judum and I understand that OEPS go in the same package.

They are essentially the same, because many members of the Salwa Judum OEPS come. They were created by a combination of regional authorities and central government. A policy designed with several people, in which Mahendra Karma was the public face of it. What they did was basically arming civilians, sending large groups of people to towns. And these burned villages, killed people and raped women. Forcing people to live in camps, so that actually launched a strategic shift mechanism. People have lived in them, and since 2007 the people began to return home, thanks to the efforts of the local CPI. They wanted to return, in any case ... The whole issue of the camps is one of the worst aspects of the Salwa Judum, and there are still people in these camps. The Government has never provided precise quantities, at the start, said there were 53,000 people in the camps, now I think there will be about 12,000, and many of them are families OEPS. Estimates change from time to time.

I suppose that these families will face her tragedy also particular: if you are an EPO, you become the target of the Maoists and their supporters ...

The OEPS have been attacked by the Maoists in their attacks, in part because they were located in the front line. It was they who suffer the murders. They are people without training: just get a two-month training and nothing else. They are unable to distinguish what should be its objectives, and having no training are much more vulnerable. One of the things he says the Supreme, is that these practices violate the rights of society itself is threatened by these forces without training.

But for many adivasis, I guess to become Maoist or EPO is a way to earn extra income and influence.

Become EPO is a source of income, because the government pays you 3,000 rupees a month (about 50 euros). When started, the pay was half, then doubled. That is very little compared to what you get a policeman, nor receive life insurance or normal protections that a policeman would, even though the responsibilities are the same. This is a violation of their right to equality. But as the Maoists, you do not get money for yourself Maoist.

This does not happen when you join the Maoist guerrillas

Feed you and give you clothing. Do not live with your family, so this does not benefit from your choice. In fact, they lose, they lose the labor force at home.

The Adivasis of Chhattisgarh will be in a situation ...

Very bad. Malnutrition rates are high. Adivasis constitute 38 percent of the population of Chhattigarh, and in the Dantewada district that percentage is 78 percent. And it could be more, what happens is that there is a mining town, Kirandul and Bacheli and Dantewada, which are mostly adivasis not. What you find in these areas is that cities are composed of non adivasis, and that the people are. And are the cities that control the economy and dominate the political and trade interests in the area. So the adivasis not exert a disproportionate influence in the area.

When we talk about counter-insurgency, this operation Green Hunt, what is attacking the security forces?

As the theory says that the Maoists, but what is happening is that in reality is that many innocent people are dying. On the ground, it is very difficult to distinguish a Maoist from someone who is not, of ordinary villagers. And the Maoists themselves have these militias. What used to happen is that the OEPS, and in fact happens, using the label "Maoist" as an excuse to solve their own private problems and eliminate their enemies. Even if this was false. Unless there is a trial properly, how can you do this? In these operations to comb the area, however, no responsibility or control. The situation is very bad.

There have been cases of harassment by security forces for external visitors

Yes, it is subtle, constantly ask you for documentation. At one point, I took his camera and returned to me only a few months later. They attacked three villages in March and burned 300 houses and when people tried to get aid to those places, they also attacked. Even the collector area and the commissioner could go further because of the action of the OEPS. They have become a force under his own rule.

Is there any attempt to promote development measures in the area, or the strategy comes down to military action?

Nothing else, other than operations. The Government has not done much to fix the problem: the minister Chidambaram, when he started, even said that the Maoists would be defeated within a year, in 2009. In 2011, the problem remains very serious. Sometimes, the defense secretary says he will take five years, sometimes what is said is to be made ​​with all India in 2050 ... Actually, what happens is that there is no strategy. Adopt a militaristic line and have not even taken seriously the possibility of talks, when last year there seemed to be ground for it ... by Swami Agnivesh, and then killed Azad, a fact that is being investigated.

He says the solution lies in building roads, infrastructure ... My question is how this is achieved, in a situation of continuing violence and without security?

Perhaps it would work to implement first a Reconciliation Commission. We should look to examples such as Guatemala, where insurgencies have had these long haul, not the model of Sri Lanka. Even if you throw like a carpet bomb the whole area ... is that they are citizens of this country who live there. How are you going to throw bombs?

But the army is operating ...

It has a training school. And the rule says that only attack in self defense. The fact that they have been sent there, when a few years ago this was unthinkable, shows that there are moves inch by inch. There is talk of helicopters, aerial surveillance drones to ... And the truth is, what will you watch? To the common people moving? It is a classic problem. When it comes to direct ... Here is someone who is a farmer by day and night ... Maoist Maoists have their LPG weapons and uniforms, but is that while there are many sympathizers in the villages. Many farmers support them. What do you do with them?

What factors do you think will become popular in these areas?

If the Government insists its policy of repression, expropriation of land without compensation, regardless of their demands ... This development model is very imperfect. All these mining companies to come and get completely illegal contracts.

But the Maoists offer an alternative? I imagine that they will propose a different model

In a sense, provide some idea of equality. On a local level, what they have done in their strongholds is to distribute the land. They have carried out a redistribution of land in the villages, after capturing. And that is what has supported them on foot, because people have benefited from their presence in a very material. And in some places have built wells and small infrastructure, but I would not say that's why, for me, the reason the support is in the land, and also the fact that higher prices may put some of the forest products they sell.

Apart from the common people, I guess there will be a Maoist elite external operations directed ...

Leaders can come from outside, usually comes from Andhra Pradesh at least in this area, but the pictures are 90% local. Between a cop who comes to burn your village and a local Maoist box, which is the kid in the next village, who do you support?

But this kind of fight also requires funding structure. Where do they get?

They get money from the people, but also trade coromandel ebony leaf (used for wrapping cigarettes). They take a commission on that trade, which is extremely beneficial to the merchants. If the Maoists declared a strike to raise prices, traders do not take anything. So they have managed to, at a time, raise prices to traders who sell these products and get money from the merchants. And it is safe to say that the Maoists get money from the industries operating in these areas. They call rates, people extortion.

Are there Essar, Tata, a public company ... What exactly do?

Mining activities are ongoing. The extraction of iron is subjected to very low mining royalties, so it is an activity that generates a great benefit, especially for iron. People do not have access to benefits, either with public sector mines in Bailadila, which have been operating since the 70's. The people have not benefited at all from it.

And is there an alternative that could benefit the residents?

Today published an article, before the government had talked of giving 26% of the profits of any mining industry for the villagers as shareholders. 26% of the royalties is a fundamental change, because, say, with a low royaltie would have, say, 800 rupees or something, should not give numbers because I do not know for sure. Well, the difference is between having 80, 800 rupees, or take 80,000. If the benefits of your royalty are very low, and benefits of iron are very high, the situation is what allows people to have their rights. The Law of Land Acquisition object only allows, but does not let that hold not really want to give your land, but use it for something else. In many cases, public hearings have been illegal. This is a gigantic struggle. Is this activist in Chhattisgarh, Ramesh Aggarwal, arrested because he did see how this particular company, Jindal, had started work even before obtaining the environmental permit. It happened in Raigarh. Like him, Joga. It is very dangerous Chhattigarh denounce these things ... you can be arrested for it!

Paradoxically, because the theory is that Chhattisgarh was established as a region to provide more opportunities for Adivasis and outsiders ...

Yet it has become a region in which Adivasis are exploited. A massive scale.

And who controls it, from the administrative point of view?

The Government and industry go hand in hand. The current government is the BJP. Have much money, just look at the way in which elections take place. This mass advertising, distributing money, liquor, and the BJP developed the program to distribute rice at 1 rupee, which is very popular given much support in the area. In this part of Bastar, many of the choices under the control of the police, so that nobody votes on the inside. The only people voting are in the cities, where the core supporters of the BJP, the merchants. Some of those votes are controlled by the CPRF ​​and the police.

The logical conclusion, then, is to think that the adivasis have no access to democracy

Not exactly, because it depends from area to area, population bag bag population. The fact is that democracy is in danger from the use of money, and this throughout the world ... It only happens in India: to win elections, you need money, and to get the money you need enhance corporate interests. And to do that, you turn away from the general interest, and partly why you have all these manifestations in Europe. The Adivasis have no proper access to Parliament. The money is in the hands of non-adivasis. But they also have their own middle class, there are people who have land ... They are a middle class standard in New Delhi, but they are in their own locality.

What I see here is that these industries do not have effective controls. Go from here to there, and people just have a voice. Happens for example in Orissa. It seems that democracy is providing them opportunities.

India's democracy is not a failure at that level. There are many areas where people manage to impose some pressure on their elected representatives to do things, such as in Telangana, this movement is now underway, which have many of the deputies resigned. Different parts of the country have a different political structure. You must be aware that this country is very diverse. What is true is not to Bastar to Delhi, where there is greater participation of the middle class. Even in Delhi, the rights of the poor are ignored in comparison with the middle class. You need to get an idea of all these elements to assess how democracy works. It is not a homogeneous phenomenon.

It is a professional and a native of Delhi gondi have little things to say ... It will be very difficult to understand the suffering of these people

I agree with that are worlds apart. India's democracy works well for some. It works less well for people like the adivasis of Bastar. There is a large gradient of the ways in which our democracy works. And this problem of money is common to all countries. We can not make this claim blank, "India's democracy is a sham." Our democracy needs to be strengthened.

What you see sometimes is that from state media, the adivasis are treated as less Indian than other groups.

The Adivasis are in the bottom of our society. But then, this is also the point where taking place most of the struggles of India. It depends on our vision of a democratic system: if we see it as what the state gives us, or as a system that depends on the demands of the people. If we take democracy to this second view, then the adivasis are very much part of Indian democracy: they are at the forefront of democratic struggle. Look Orissa, Chhattsgarh, or northeast, it is they who are articulating new demands.

But for example in the northeast, it is not clear that you are getting nowhere with the fight. Is the case of Irom Sharmila, for example, and its more than ten years on hunger strike to no avail.

Yes, I agree. It is really surprising that someone who has spent ten years on hunger strike is not finding an answer in the state. But then, for all the people of Manipur she is an icon. And for all of us. It is in many ways ... In my heroine staff that all these people are struggling, however hard it may be, lies the real character of what is Indian democracy. In the village.

According to their opinion, analysis and field experience, do you think that the Adivasis are making their way and new paths on the way to improve their situation, or conflict makes it impossible?

I think it is very hard for them. Their voices are silenced. There is a complete disconnect between what people think of Delhi, including the police apparatus in the country, about what is safety, and what people really think of his country's security. If you speak with anyone from Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand or Orissa, they feel very insecure on account of this operation Green Hunt. And that's what causes them insecurity are not the Maoists but these raids, these hairstyles area. There seems to be a silencing of their demands and that no one takes this as a national issue. It's strange that something like this happen ...

And is India ready to assume that these people feel more threatened by the security forces by the Maoists?

No. But no one accepts it anywhere in the world. Why is the United States in Afghanistan or Iraq? Why do you support Spain? CPI is the party that is at the forefront and open action. It is they who are suffering in the field of government repression, because many workers have been arrested. There are demonstrations in 2007 that began to allow people back home, and took a principled stand from the beginning with the Salwa Judum. If there is someone there, is the ICC. The CPI stood slightly against both attacks by Maoists and against the Government. The Communists are targeted by the Maoists because, after all, are battling the same sympathies. The Communists have lost elections for the election boycott by the Maoists. But the Communists are against the Salwa Judum, and do not share the Maoist call for boycott, have considered that the presence of these forces was unacceptable.

Share