Chandra Bhan Prasad

Some 165 million Indians still preserve the ancient status of "dalits" or untouchables, outside the rigid and hierarchical Hindu system of caste . For centuries, have taken on tasks that nobody else wants and have suffered a barbarous discrimination by the rest of society. Even today, are prohibited from entering certain rural temples, can not draw water from the same well used by the rest of the population and, in some remote areas, have to advertise their presence so that your shadow does not touch unclean to the Brahmins. One of his most significant voices is that of Chandra Bhan Prasad, the first "Dalit" with a column in a newspaper. Prasad has carried out a study, supported by the University of Pennsylvania, to detect if it is a change in patterns of behavior of "dalits" in recent decades. And, she says, that change comes by way least expected: economic liberalism, capitalism.

- You say there are signs of a change in the situation of "dalits". Why has it taken so long to arrive? The India gained independence six decades ago ...

We wanted to study the changes following the economic reforms of 1991. So the 90 is our reference, starting and ending 91 years or so, in 2007. I think the cause of change is the massive economic expansion. Dalits began to occupy the lower rungs of the industrial jobs: mechanics, technicians ... But they began to send money home in the village, and also the messages: "Please Dad, mom, sister, stop work on the lands of the landowner. And do something else because I send money. " Say, 1,000 rupees a month (about 20 euros). That created a kind job crisis in the country, because each town is losing positions arms to non-agricultural work.

When a food crisis, there are those who blames the Dalits. Say they do not cultivate the land as before, and therefore there is less grain. And the Dalits say yes, what happens: we do not cultivate the land or discrimination.

- At this point, the fact that the lands do not have dalits influences the process.

People with land has no reason to go into town unless you have a more lucrative opportunity. In India, in Europe too long ago, every family looking to have livestock, and livestock requires work of each member of the family, particularly children, caring for small animals such as pigs, goats, chickens, sheep, and this prevents them from advancing their education. Many Dalits have no land and no longer have animals. There is nothing to tie them to the field. So if you get a ticket to Delhi or Bombay, they leave.

With the floods in Bihar [a region in the north], where aid teams arrived to rescue people from roofs, half said first and then we won, then they were told that was not possible. And what they replied they wanted was a home service, "because then we do not want to leave here, we're fine. Bring us water and food, "he said. They were afraid of losing their livestock.

The upper castes have land, cattle, buffalo ... So do not face any trouble. There is no reason that impels them to come to a shantytown and working in a factory, unless they appoint managers or white collar workers.

Some Dalits are starting to buy land, and that is very dangerous. Because when you buy land, you'll be stuck with them.

- But the anxiety of speaking ... what is the exact situation of Dalits in a village today? What is now suffering discrimination?

The rural structure is such that at any point of Dalit village this country is in the city center. It will away, outside. Any communication infrastructure reaches the city center where there are no Dalits, and stops there. So Dalits can not go to your local bike directly but must go through the village. Matter of tradition. In addition, water sources are different for the Dalits. Another example: in Haryana [a region of northwest], when Dalit wedding and groom goes with his band, on horseback, others attack them.

My own family has in the memory of a landowner, riding a black horse. We were building the house and came to say that the roof of our house (partly clay, partly of brick), should not be taller than his house. This was a subtle threat. And they could not act to smite the pride of the landowner. So they were ready: put a platform of mud on the ground and built the house on it, so that the height of the houses was less than the landowner. But the appearance in the distance, remained was that of a huge house. Dalits and other towns came to see the house.

- But these situations of discrimination do not occur in the cities ...

The caste system began in a rural environment. You can not operate in a city with the same level of authority. Because here in the city no one knows. In a restaurant, is a stranger who serves you food. So greatly, caste becomes ineffective in the context of the city.

- And is there any brand, any sign of distinction for Dalits?

In northern India, that mark is the name and last name. For example, if you just call me Chandra Bhan, then I have no name and that causes doubt. And there mark on the surname: Sharma, Singh, Pandey, are names that denote a higher caste than, say, Ram, or those without a name. In India, if you are not Dalits, have a last name.

- In addition there own jobs, as cleaners ...

Yes, they can see them and say they are Dalits. No need to ask. But there are Dalits who try to escape from their condition and hide their caste [the progress of vegetarian food in India partly hides the desire of castibajos to resemble the 'Brahmins']. Sometimes, there are Dalits in their offices trying not to go through such. But in India, people have the habit of asking your parents, your ancestors, who they were, what they did. Dalits have no memory of that lineage, because they were always workers. So the occupation of parents, also know.

As for work in the field Dalits were engaged in farm work, the toughest jobs. An example: In the past, there was no machinery and Dalits must separate the wheat from the chaff from the wheat, so when they brought the harvest to the landlord's house, two oxen walking on the crop for two or three days, and ate the straw. As also fed on grain, Dalits should be home droppings. There, washed and separated the grain, the landowner is left with the grain and they stayed with the droppings for use as fuel. Up to that point came their poverty. In the culture of the peasants was the concept of "eat" before going to work. It pulled all day without food in the fields, while the landlord began the day with tea or milk.

- Are Dalits now better access to education?

In general, people have begun to invest in education. Take the example of a people traditionally regarded as "long overdue" called Bara Kotta: there are 47 Dalit children who have chosen private education, and only 13 or 14 studying in public schools, where they are given free food, among other things. In private, must pay about 25 rupees a month [only half a euro], but most prefer.

In my own case, my family wanted me to have the highest education possible. As my brother, who worked with a reserved job: to withdraw had no home, no TV or fridge, but managed to educate their four sons. Now in my family did not seek state aid, because we can stand on our own.

- What role have quotas and reservations in public employment in the advancement of Dalits? It seems that there are many positions that are not occupied.

No, no. Most other positions are occupied by Dalits, except for certain areas of the scientific field. And most importantly, has created a middle class Dalits. So quotas have worked. But it is true that the fees can not reach all Dalits. Reach only a 6 or 7 percent of the Dalits. For state jobs were less than 20 million. And they have your share: 16 percent for Dalits and 8 to tribes. That leaves five million jobs, so even if all stay busy, only a few million Dalits have those jobs.

-In any case, what is the reason there are unfilled seats?

Is that the majority of Dalits are in a state of backwardness. They were warned and did not receive enough information. Now at least when there is a vacancy in office, is covered, except in the academic, justice, army and some scientific areas.

- This educational benefit, do you see a future in which Dalits caste to not be of concern?

So far, in the order of caste, your position is fixed. I refer to the ritual hierarchy. That is not negotiable or subject to purchase. There have been major historical moments in which important people tried to overcome it and failed. For example Shivaji, Emperor of Maharashtra, who came from the Sudra caste status but claimed kshatriya [warrior], he took the throne by force, but needed a Brahmin who ritualizara. So he turned to a beggar Brahmin of Benares. And yet there are doubts about their status.

Some say that the Dalits were in India before the others arrived, but no evidence. And in any case, the claim to a noble past of course, what good is it? What good is to say, we were kings? Dalits have no nostalgia for the past. They are nostalgic: precisely what they want is to forget his past.

The ritual is still the benchmark brand in the social: the Dalits can not move. What I argue is that if consumer goods replaced the ritual as a mark of status, then we have broken with the past. Because consumer goods are negotiable and subject to purchase. A Dalit can buy a TV. Before a poor Brahmin may have nothing to put in their mouth, but walked as a Brahmin and people would have to bend over. But now, what happens on the field, is that if you are Brahman but have no food, no motorcycle or a TV antenna sticking out of your house, no phone, no fridge, then who are you? ¿Brahman? So what? Get lost!

- So what you maintain is that capitalism is bringing a change for Dalits.

Yes, because the caste system was born in a rural system. People who survived with minimal needs. The breed was her solace. A rich dalit salute was subjugated to a kshatriya. But now the marks are changing. So with this system, long term, the breed will become irrelevant. But still there, as happens in the U.S.: when a white friend, and with confidence, says that its origin is Irish or British, or that their ancestors came from France. So that aspect continues to exist, but has no role in public life.

- And in this progress, I guess that urban India is having a major role. The Dalits are, as I understand, because they have important possessions in the field.

Come more easily. But this is not mainstream thinking. Dalit intellectuals do not believe that capitalism will inevitably lead to no relief.

- That's what you thought before. I saw that he played in the Naxalite guerrillas [the name given to the Maoists in India]! You changed your mind?

Yes [laughs]. Actually, I was young. I came to study at JNU, with a past in which he had seen the suffering and humiliation. So I thought if Naxalism is a change, let me be part of it. And I spent three years devoted to full-time pacing with a gun. But then I realized that this would not work. I felt that what combat Naxalism is modernity. And they are against the rich. Imagine that I have no money to buy ice cream for my children. And I see other children eating ice cream. Why should I go against them? At least one ice cream vendor has a job. In my town there are 36 ice cream vendors. Your children may not be paid ice cream, but as the rich kids eat ice cream, their parents bring home 200 rupees a day. So have food. Best clothes, and can go to school. How to analyze the change of some Dalits and Naxalites is to think that there is an increasing gap between rich and poor.

He criticizes capitalism will increase inequality.

I have to discuss it with my opponents. The Dalits had no elephants, or horses. Started having bicycle 20 or 30 years. I had nothing, I bought a bicycle. He had seen bicycles, or people riding bicycles. I bought one, but it turns out my landlord bought a motorcycle and a car. When I had nothing, my landlord had an elephant. Inequality increased, yes. But now at least I had a bicycle.

The point is that if Bill Gates has 1,000 million dollars in your account, it will not impact much on your lifestyle. It has it all! But for a black driver of a cab in Harlem, $ 10 extra a day will involve a change in diet. Would go from red meat to white meat. And a Dalit buy a "Maruti" and the reaction is "Wow, a Dalit by car."

- But if the Dalits remain isolated and without access infrastructure, how do you get supplies?

There is a traditional boundary to be changed. Because when a Dalit comes to town, nobody can control it. This has seen things, has opened his mind. And start thinking, "Who the hell is the landlord?". There are many instances of Dalits who came to the city and then returned a year later, wearing jeans, shirts or sunglasses. It turns out that the son of the landowner concerned. "Hey," he says, "I'm standing here and I say 'hello'. And the Dalit says, "Who do you think you are? Why it is I who must say 'hello' and not vice versa? You're younger than me. " So there are riots and clashes. In most cases, because the Dalits can look at society in the eye. Before it was a "yes sir", "namaste, sir." Now look straight ahead. And there are riots. Why would anyone kill your opponent, if not because you feel threatened? As before there were no murders, many tell me that the reforms have brought massacres. That when there was capitalism, not kill them. But those deaths come from a perceived threat to culture, tradition or domain. Still, I say do not kill us before and now, with capitalism. It is a fact. But reason is not capitalism, but the attempt to break free from the domination and slavery.

- Have you seen concrete changes in the attempt to escape the domination? The villages are cut off.

That is why stress! The tension comes because Dalits are accessing the market. Before there was tension because the domain was absolute. Those who continue in the fields continue to suffer this domination. But those who have gone out and enjoy some freedom.

Capitalism is serving to mark the passage of a system based on caste, to another system that is not based on caste. Now, go to my village, and two beauty centers in Dalit areas. Who could imagine this 20 years ago?

- And in his report, is there any investigation of which you feel surprised?

Not exactly. Look, my grandfather worked as a guard and my brother got a job reserved. I grew up in a town to get to college, at age 20. I came to JNU, I studied three years and then joined the Naxalites three years in the field. I returned to college to continue studying a PhD in Chinese science. But then I quit because I was not interested. And I went to my village where I spent four or five years with the message of B. Ambedkar, organizing people, promoting education. So I was in touch with society, and when I proposed this study to the University of Pennsylvania, accepted immediately.

- Then there is the question of symbols. When I arrived in India, one of the first news was the destruction of a statue of Ambedkar. Why keep alive the opposition against him?

For Ambedkar is an icon. If you want to attack a particular individual, you and hit you. But if you want to attack the entire Dalit community, what you do is hit your symbol. What the Bible is to Christians or the Koran for Muslims, it is Ambedkar for Dalits. Ambedkar's statues often have raised the index finger of the hand, and often is that finger so they attack. Because society understands that what Ambedkar is point to it with your finger. Dalits feel damaged to an attack on Ambedkar. Do not tolerate: for Ambedkar attack is to attack the Dalits.

- Who is leading these attacks?

You do not need an organized attack. Anyone can do it. Sometimes they can be organized, perhaps the RSS.

- The Dalits are now in power in Uttar Pradesh [in the north, the region's most populous country]. Are you bringing this real change or is merely lip service?

Discussions are on-line if Mayawati who has spurred the Dalits in Uttar Pradesh or are Dalits who have spurred Mayawati.

- What do you mean?

As the head of government, that has triggered the self-esteem of Dalits, the company is receiving a "daliterapia" oh, we are governed by Dalits. So the hatred of the Dalits is partly relieved, because she has been democratically elected. And Dalits can no longer be the scapegoat for everything.

- What Mayawati already has a status comparable to that of Ambedkar in the movement "Dalit"?

As a policy, it's like any politician. Every politician in India has open cases and allegations of corruption. Politicians make money and that's your only reason to enter politics. There are only a few exceptions of politicians who have failed to profit, as Manmohan Singh. Apart from this, Mayawati is a symbol of Dalit pride today.